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Hello and welcome to the Americano podcast, a series of discussions about American power, politics and prejudices.

The election is over, but the Americano never stops, and there will be a lot to talk about

with the second Trump administration. And so we'll bring you more and more Americano,

because judging from the feedback, that's what you guys want.

So please keep listening.

I'm delighted to be joined today

by Dean Kisick, who

is a writer

and a curator

of sorts. Did you say you call yourself a creator?

No, not really, no.

No.

But I took an MA in curating, so I was trained in curation.

I'm a failed curator, I suppose.

And you worked for a rather famous curator?

I interned for Hans-Oracobrist, the Serpentine Gallery here in London, in the summer of 2008, I think.

And he is an interesting part of this fascinating piece you have written for Harper's Magazine,

which is a great American magazine, and you have taken after Tom Wolfe who also wrote for Harper's and wrote

magnificent blasts against contemporary art at the time you have done a more

contemporary blast against contemporary art which you say has been destroyed by politics

...