Hello and welcome to rock and roll politics, the weekly podcast with me, Steve Richards.

Thank you very much for tuning in wherever you are.

And we have got so much to cram in in our time together.

As you know, one of the things we do in the Rock and Roll Politics Cooperative

is to occasionally challenge a few orthodoxies arising around us.

Last week, we did it over this crazy, shallow juxtaposition between disruptors and anti-disruptors,

as if that is a framing that works for anything.

I was thinking of some more examples since then because Kirstama predictably has taken it up

after his political cabinet meeting,

things about disruptors versus anti-disruptors.

The biggest disruptor we have had in recent times was Liz Tras.

You know, what does it mean to be in favour of

disruption? I mean, it is so imprecise and apolitical. It's not a guide to anything. You are

change makers on the basis of values and ideas and people can challenge your version of change.

That's the essence of democratic politics.

There are disruptors all over the place.

And you will approve of some disruption and not of others.

Kirstama and Morgan McSweeney are very cautious by instinct.

It would have been an act of disruption

to challenge the Brexit settlement, and they don't dare do it, even though they know that

settlement was so damaging. So they're not, by instinct, always disruptors. Perhaps they will be

in some areas and not others. It is an utterly meaningless just

...