With the dual crises of COVID and Russia's invasion of Ukraine,

globalization is arguably facing its biggest test of the post-Cold War era.

So could we see a reversal of the globalization trends

that have been in place for the last several decades? of the

globalization trends that have been in place for the last several decades.

And what would that mean for society, the economy, and markets?

These questions are top of mind.

I'm Allison Nathan and this is exchanges at Goldman Sachs. Today we have a special episode of exchanges that leverages are top of mind series.

In this series, we bring together voices inside and outside of Goldman Sachs

to discuss the macro issues on the minds of our clients.

Today, de-globalization is top of mind. We first speak to Adam Pozen, president of the

Peterson Institute for International Economics. He doesn't believe that globalization is coming to an end.

But he does think that the pandemic and the war in Ukraine

will accelerate a trend that's already underway,

the fragmentation of the world into two blocks,

one aligned around the US and one around China.

In my view, what's going on is what I call the corrosion of globalization.

That it's not just it's moving one way or it's moving backwards.

It's not one concept. It's a multi-layered interaction

between economies and societies.

There's trade, there's investment,

there's financial flows, there's idea flows,

...