Hi everybody, thank you for being with me.

We're going to talk about Christian nationalism today and Christian nationalism, remember, is not a religious movement. It is a political movement. So let's first of all make some real basics clear. We are not a Christian nation. We are a religiously pluralistic nation and our founders were very clear about this. In America they said people could be any religion they wanted to be, or even if they wanted to worship. They could worship or not worship, and if they did worship in any way they chose. That is our constitutional basis. Of course, the first 10 amendments of the U.S. Constitution are called the Bill of Rights. And the very first one says, among other things, Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. Now, religious minorities that therefore protected in America, we are a majority Christian nation. And that's fine or a majority Christian nation. But that doesn't mean that we are quote unquote a Christian nation We are a religiously pluralistic nation now since the 1970s There's been a movement of foot and this movement is called Christian nationalism and the Christian nationalists believe that Christianity should be the dominant religion in American society and now now this is very, very significant. They have a theory, this premise that they call the Seven Mountain premise. And this is spheres of societal influence that they say only Christians should dominate. Religion, family, education, government, media, business, and arts and entertainment. Right? So there have actually been political leaders who were Jewish, for instance, and were told by a Christian nationalist, it is not legitimate for you to be there because you are a Christian. It was legitimate for him to be there because he was elected in a democratic society based on constitutional principles. So in response to this, you know, a lot of times, you know, we've talked a lot recently about how at a time when hate is shouting, it's not enough for love to whisper. A lot of times people, because the religious life is internal and has to do with what's going on inside, a lot of people, when it comes to their own religious experience, don't want to be out there talking about it. And they don't want to be talking about it in politics, and they theoretically shouldn't have to either. right now what's happening is that this Christian nationalist message is so loud that many progressive Christians are feeling like, no, we've got to make the message really clear. Because the Christian nationalist message is, according to many progressive Christians, not a message of Christ at all. So that's what we're here to talk about today. And I have a great guest with us, and that is Brandon Robertson. To full disclosure here, he's also a friend of mine, as well as an honored colleague. He is an author, activist, and public seeologian. Currently serving as the pastor of Sunnyside Reform Church in New York City. He's been called the TikTok pastor. His content has received more than 10 million views, and his work has been featured. In Time Magazine CNN and the Washington Post, you can find out more about him at branden robertson.com. That's brand and B-R-A-N-D-A-N. And I'm so excited to have him here. Hey, Brandon, thank you for being with us and being willing to discuss some of this with our audience. First of all, what about the things that I said so far? Yes? Are they really good? Absolutely. Well, first, thank you so much, because I appreciate that in this moment, you pointed out that there is a growing progressive Christian resistance, and I think there's a great need for that, of course. but this resistance to Christian nationalism needs to be

a whole American resistance. I think yes. Hello, Jew here. You know I agree with that. Exactly. And so I think it's so important for you to be raising your voice and thanks for giving a platform to voices like mine. Sure. Let's start though with a specifically Christian aspect. Because people here that term Christian nationalists, one woman was criticizing me online And she said something like, the founders were Christian Nassilus.

I said, they very much were not Christian nationalists. So talk to me about Christianity as in the teachings of Christ and the relationship of the teachings of Christ to the political movement of Christian nationalism. Totally. I mean, when we start looking at American history, it's a little ironic because if most Christian nationalists read what people like George Washington or Thomas Jefferson said about Christianity, Christian nationalists would not consider them Christian, because they were very modernistic in their way of understanding Christianity. Thomas Jefferson, for instance, has his Jefferson Bible where he removes all supernatural elements and just as the moral teachings of the Bible.

Yeah, so it's really profoundly interesting that there's this revisionist history happening trying to revise what our founding fathers actually believed. And from a biblical perspective, the message and mission of Jesus was never to conquer nations.

Jesus transformed the world through one subversive act of love at a time and explicitly said, my kingdom is not of this world. And therefore my servant shouldn't be fighting imperial battles, but instead should be seeking to change people's hearts and minds as a way of transforming society. And Christian nationalism is pretty explicitly saying that the way of Jesus is not effective. They're not liking the time and the energy it takes to actually share the good news of God's love with people that can transform their hearts and minds and thus then transform the nation. Instead, as you pointed out, they're aiming to go for the biggest power of our society, whether that's entertainment or government or education or any of the other ones, and trying to, from the top down, force people to align with Christianity. And the last thing I'll say there is it's been really ironic. There's one leader in the Christian nationalist movement named Doug Wilson. And he's going to ask you about him. Yeah, I actually interviewed him probably 15 years ago on my old podcast. And he's really evolved in his radicalness. But he's not even interested anymore in actually making people authentic Christians, meaning believing what he believes. He started using language of cultural Christianity, forcing people to be inculturated into what he says is a Christian culture, which is just frankly a white cisgender, heterosexual, heterosexual, patriarchal worldview. And he wants to make Americans be forced to perform Christianity whether or not they believe it. And so it's a really interesting goal. Let's be, as long as you mentioned him, he wants to repeal the 19th Amendment. Yeah. Right? I mean, he really does want a Christian theocracy. Absolutely. And I mean, that's surprising in and of itself. Again, 10 years ago, the far right conservative Christians held the Constitution as near to Scripture. They wanted to uphold the Constitution and uphold the basic principles of American democracy. Today they're saying we don't want First Amendment rights. We do want to change the Constitution fundamentally. There's been an evolution because they are explicitly moving towards, as you said, theocracy rather than just even Christianizing culture. Yeah. Right.

So I think a lot of people, you know, so many people today

are just like, what's happening?

And I think that all of this is very clarifying.

So you've got the white supremacists,

you've got the Christian nationalists.

And then of course, you have the Techno, Curtis,

Jorvin, Peter, Teogang.

And they're basically a loosely associated,

or at least loosely, allies. And they have one common goal, really. And that is the disruption, the complete undermining and sabotage of the constitutional system as it now exists, which has been the core basis for all progress in American history. And the question right now is whether or not we're willing to give that up. So how convenient to call themselves Christian nationalists? First of all, nationalism, there's a difference between patriotism and nationalism. This whole idea that God loves any religion more than He loves any other is, I believe, spiritually unsound. The idea that God loves any nation, more than loves any other, is spiritually unsound because the idea that God loves any person before any more than any other is spiritually unsound. If, in fact, his is the love for all people unconditionally because he knows us as we were created, which is perfect in his image. So let's stay right now before we get into the specifically political part. Talk to me about the teachings of Jesus and how you think that they relate to considerations it should be given to public policy. Yeah I mean what sometimes confuses folks when they hear us progressive Christians speak is I'm very willing to say that Jesus' message was a political message, politics meaning the affairs of the people. Jesus literally was preaching against a authoritarian empire in his day and trying to help liberate his people. That's what a Jewish Messiah was supposed to be. Yeah, Jews were pressed at that time by the Romans and he was that's what that's what many of its followers wanted in a Messiah was someone who would save them and not not not just his followers the Jews before he even he emerged in many Jews today whereas the Messiah wears the whereas the Messiah. And of course, the Christian said the Messiah came,

the Jews are saying the Messiah is still coming.

And Einstein said, well, there is no time.

So when you look at these things metaphysically,

this is beyond time, the notion of the real savior

of humanity, which is a whole metaphysical conversation

that is slightly different.

But I think what you're saying is so important

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