What if mind control is real? And no, we aren't talking about MK Ultra. We are talking about

neurolinguistic programming or NLP, a blend of hypnosis, linguistics, and psychology that has

quietly shaped industries, institutions, and belief systems around the world. Today, you

aren't following me down the rabbit hole, but rather journalists and best friends Zoe Lascaz

and Alice Hines in their new podcast Mind Games.

They actually tell you the story of NLP and its crazy cast of disciples,

including the fake doctor who invented it at a new age commune,

took it to Fortune 500 boardrooms, and whose gruesome murder trial did little to stop its rise.

And the craziest part about this whole thing is that NLP may actually work.

Richard was my first real therapist.

Debra Kenter Morton was a student and one of their first guinea picks.

I actually did quite a bit of my personal work with the both of them.

That was extremely powerful.

Debra experienced therapeutic breakthroughs with Bandler and Grinder.

But by the end of her time... I plotted revenge. I thought of suing them. I thought about putting

sugar in their gas tanks. Debra first met Bandler when they were both volunteering at a peer

counseling center. And Bandler was the trainer.

Richard Bandler was in there training you. You're both undergraduate students. How did he get in the position where he was training anyone to work on people with real problems?

I have no idea how that happened. There must have been some

kind of supervision. God, you hope so. What were the trainings like? It was, I used the word

wholesome, but I used the word wholesome in contrast to where I feel like it went later.

When I met them, they knew what they were doing.

...