Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, If we want to have any chance of shifting to a post-capitalist economy,

this is more than just figuring out the right economic policies.

I mean, Degrowth scholarship loves thinking about what are the policies that we need to shift to a post-growth economy in a kind of safe and just and sustainable way.

And that's great, but it's in fact not enough. We also need a deep ontological shifts to restore a sense of connection to the rest of the living world.

And to me that's the most exciting part, right?

As an anthropologist, I get to tell these phenomenal stories about the way that different people

in different parts of the world today

think about nature and fundamentally different ways to the way that we do

in Western capital societies.

And what can we learn from that?

What does that mean for our ethics in terms of engagement with each

other and with the living world when we refuse to see other forms of life as

fundamentally separate and beneath us, right? That changes the game entirely. You are listening to upstream. Upstream. Upstream. Upstream. Upstream. Upstream. I'm Dela Duncan. And I'm Robert Raymond. In this conversation we spoke with London-based economic anthropologist Jason Hickle, author of The Divide, a brief guide to global inequality and its solutions.

Jason's new book, Less is More, will be out in August published by Penguin.

We spoke with him about international capitalism during the pandemic, new opportunities for de-growth

economics, and how to fundamentally move towards a post-capitalist world.

Good to speak with you, Jason. Thank you so much. Good morning. Good evening, good afternoon.

Yes, thanks for having me on.

Yeah, it's my pleasure to be with you.

And Jason, I'd love if you wouldn't mind introducing yourself,

because I love to hear how folks introduce themselves. And I know you've written a lot and you do a bunch of different things.

So how would you introduce yourself for our listeners?

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