From the New York Times, I'm Sabrina Taverni-C, and this is The Daily.

As Ukraine's counteroffensive grinds on, it's increasingly turning to a secret drone program

that's hitting targets deep inside Russian territory.

Today, I talk to my colleague, Christian Trebert, about the origins of that program, and

to Sergei Pertula, a former television host in Ukraine, who is now a key force behind it.

It's Tuesday, September 19th.

Christian, welcome to the show.

Thank you very much for having me here.

So, Christian, tell me about how you first came to investigate Ukraine's drone program.

So, in early May, unverified footage appears to show an object flying toward the dome of the

Kremlin before bursting into flames. The whole world was in shock because these two drones

attacked the Kremlin.

Tonight, there's a mystery in Moscow, the Kremlin accusing Ukraine of launching drone attacks,

and a bit killing President Vladimir Putin. Ukraine denies it.

And it was kind of, like, unthinkable. Of course, the Russian invasion,

full-skilled invasion of Ukraine had been going on for over a year,

but suddenly, like, two drones exploding above the Kremlin was like, wow, they're hitting

where Putin is in the heart of Moscow, it was wild.

Does Ukraine have drones that could reach the Kremlin five, six hundred miles from the Ukrainian border?

And it was surprising because Ukraine doesn't have equipment that does that, right?

So, it was sort of like, wait, is this someone inside Russia doing this a Kremlin attack?

Who is this?

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