This is Paul Adamson and I'm in conversation with Robert Madeline. Robert Madeline is a senior

advisor of innovation at the European Commission reporting to the European Political Strategy Centre,

a kind of internal think tank. And before that, he ran the commission department responsible

for digital policy and telecommunications. Robert, we're here to talk about innovation, obviously.

It's the kind of concept that maybe people think they all agree what it means, but have maybe

different definitions what it is actually. What is your definition of innovation?

So I think that's a good question. Indeed, it's the first question that we're asking ourselves internally.

Do we have the same vision on what it is?

Innovation is bringing new things into the real world of use.

So it's different from just inventing in a laboratory.

People have to pick it up and use it.

And that can affect not just technological change, cars and planes and rockets,

but also the way an organization sets itself up, the way society operates.

So innovation doesn't have to be technological, but it does have to be

in the real world, in the market, in society. So what does this new job entail? Senior

Devise of Innovation is obviously a brand new position, so tell us what it actually entails.

So an advisor gives advice. Yes. And for the historians among us, Francis Bacon was writing even in the 17th

Central about how difficult it is to get your advice right in the sense that you mustn't say what the person

seeking advice wants you to say, but equally you must package what you want to say in a way that

helps individuals take new decisions.

So my job dealing with innovation in the European Commission is to help the President and his

College of Commissioners to decide whether or not we should do more, less, different or the same

...