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The Ezra Klein Show

India Is Transforming. But Into What?

The Ezra Klein Show

New York Times Opinion

Society & Culture, Government, News

4.611K Ratings

🗓️ 12 December 2023

⏱️ 61 minutes

🧾️ Download transcript

Summary

India is known as a country of paradoxes, and a new one has recently emerged. At the same time that the country is poised to become a major global player — with a booming economy and a population that recently surpassed China’s — its democracy is showing signs of decay. Prime Minister Narendra Modi and his administration have silenced critics and independent institutions. India’s social media discourse has turned increasingly right wing and hostile to Muslims. And Canada and the United States have accused Indian government officials of involvement in assassination plots against Sikh activists. Pratap Bhanu Mehta is an honorary senior fellow at the Center for Policy Research, New Delhi; a professor at Princeton University; and an editor of “The Oxford Handbook to the Indian Constitution.” In this conversation, he walks our guest host Lydia Polgreen through India’s rising illiberalism. “The signs for Indian democracy are looking very ominous,” he says. They discuss the paradox between India’s flourishing economy and culture and signs of weakening democracy, especially at a moment when many Western countries are cheering a rising India as a democratic counterweight to China. They also talk about what makes Modi such a remarkable and effective political leader and what the United States and other countries could or should do in response to a more assertive India that is shattering norms at home. Mentioned: The Discovery of India by Jawaharlal Nehru Book Recommendations: The India Trilogy by V.S. Naipaul India in Asian Geopolitics by Shivshankar Menon Dreamers by Snigdha Poonam Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected]. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Mixing by Efim Shapiro. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Emefa Agawu and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser.

Transcript

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0:00.0

From New York Times opinion, this is the Ezra Klein Show. Hey it is Ezra. I'm thrilled today to have this fantastic conversation from my

0:27.3

colleague at times opinion, the co-host of Matter of Opinion, our cousin

0:31.2

podcast Lydia Polgreen on one of the other foreign affairs stories

0:35.0

who've wanted to cover more and that deserves a lot of attention, which is rising illiberalism

0:39.6

in India.

0:45.0

15 years ago I moved to New Delhi as a correspondent for the New York Times.

0:52.0

It was a heady moment after years of I moved to New Delhi as a correspondent for the New York Times.

0:53.1

It was a heady moment.

0:54.3

After years of uncertain growth,

0:55.9

the country seemed primed for a kind of rapid economic expansion

0:59.3

that could vault its billion-plus people out of poverty,

1:01.7

just as China had. But unlike China, India was a boisterous

1:05.0

beacon of democracy, secularism, and freedom. India today has fulfilled a lot of the promises

1:10.2

I heard when I was there. It became the world's most populous country this year.

1:14.3

According to the World Bank, India's economy is one of the fastest growing in the world.

1:18.1

The country even hosted the G20 in September. At the same time, there's been a clear erosion of democracy.

1:24.8

The state has stoked violence against religious minorities.

1:27.8

Prime Minister Norengra Modi and his administration have silenced both critics and

1:31.6

independent institutions.

1:33.2

And Indian government officials have been linked to two assassination plots

1:36.8

against Sikh activists in Canada and the United States,

1:39.9

a pretty stunning diplomatic scandal that puts new stress on India's relationship with the West.

...

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