Michael Cockwell has made some of the best political documentaries about UK politics,

covering Prime Ministers from Howardwick Milland to Boris Johnson.

From the 1970s to today, he has taken viewers into the corridors of power

and tried to help us understand what makes politicians tick.

Welcome to Payne's Politics, your essential insider guide to what's happening in British politics

from the Financial Times, with me Sebastian Payne.

I'm delighted to be joined by Michael Cockwell.

His new book, Unmasking Our Leaders, takes us into a career of political journalism

and interviews regarding not just politicians and MPs and ministers,

but also the secret world of Whitehall.

Cockwell looks back on the leaders he's met and what he's learned from them.

Michael, welcome to the podcast.

Thanks very much for asking me.

So, I just wanted to begin with how you got into political journalism

a fair few years ago, if you don't mind me saying,

that you've been at the BBC an awful long time ago,

what compelled you to start getting into this question of what goes on behind the scenes?

I don't know, I suppose I was brought up in a political household.

My parents were sort of slightly Bohemian.

My mother wrote plays, one of which was seen by the Lord Chamberlain at the time

as a dirty play, because there was a censorship of the theatre.

So, she had to put it on at the art theatre club.

...