Welcome back to the podcast.

I'm Alexandra Rogge and today we're talking about what my guest describes as the underside of globalization.

He's a distinguished fellow at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace,

contributing editor to the Atlantic, the chief international columnist

for the largest dailies in Spain and in Italy, and he was editor-in-chief of foreign policy

for 14 years during which he completely revitalized that publication.

He was also Venezuela's Minister of Trade and Industry in the early 90s, director of Venezuela's Central Bank, an executive director

of the World Bank.

His most recent book was the New York Times bestseller, The End of Power, but it's his 2006 book

illicit, how smugglers, traffickers, and copycats are hijacking the global economy that's required

reading for anyone interested in

international financial crime. Moises Naim, thank you for joining me today. Thanks for inviting me.

Delighted to be chatting with you. You described the five wars of globalization in a foreign policy

article. Drugs, arms trafficking, human smuggling, money laundering, and theft of intellectual property.

Is there a hierarchy of bad amongst these? I mean, the fifth is a crime and it's wrong,

but is it really the same category as trafficking in drugs and arms?

I'm not that worried about high-end fashion things that are being copied and traded.

I am worried about the trafficking of children, for example, or nuclear technology.

There is a hierarchy concerning how, you know, either morally or in terms of the world security

is associated with these criminal enterprises.

You talk about these five categories as fueling instability more generally.

Can you describe a little bit for people who haven't read your fantastic book, the premise behind that?

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