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The Gray Area with Sean Illing

Ibram X. Kendi wants to redefine racism

The Gray Area with Sean Illing

Vox Media Podcast Network

Politics, News, Society & Culture, News Commentary, Philosophy

4.511.1K Ratings

🗓️ 7 October 2019

⏱️ 86 minutes

🧾️ Download transcript

Summary

Racism is one of the most morally charged words in the English language. It is typically understood as a form of deep inner prejudice — something that people actively feel and consciously express. My guest today, Ibram X. Kendi, wants to redefine racism. He defines the idea simply: support for policies that widen racial inequality. Kendi is a professor of African-American Studies and director of the Antiracist Policy Center at American University. His National Book Award-winning Stamped From the Beginning argued that racist policies beget racist ideas, not the other way around. His new book, How to Be an Antiracist, is a continuation of that project. It focuses on racism as a structural ecosystem that black people face, not a prejudice that white people feel. The implications of this redefinition are far-reaching. Are you a racist if you loathe people who aren’t of your race but don’t want to pass policy on it? Are you a racist if you tried to narrow racial inequality but your program backfired? In this conversation, we map the boundaries of Kendi’s definition and its implications. We discuss his admission that he “used to be racist most of the time,” his argument against racial integration, whether it’s giving too much power to policy to blame it for all racial inequality, whether the word “racist” is too charged for the more nuanced conversations we need to have, the meta-philosophy behind African-American studies, and much more. Book recommendations: Autobiography of Malcolm X (as told to Alex Haley) The Souls of Black Folk by W.E.B. DuBois Fatal Invention by Dorothy Roberts Want to contact the show? Reach out at ezrakleinshow@vox.com News comes at you fast. Join us at the end of your day to understand it. Subscribe to Today, Explained We are conducting an audience survey to better serve you. It takes no more than five minutes, and it really helps out the show. Please take our survey here Register to attend the live Ezra Klein Show taping in SF Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Transcript

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0:00.0

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0:34.0

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0:37.0

Generally we have defined racist policies and racist people based on the perpetrator and the intent as opposed to the victim and the outcome.

0:58.0

Hello, welcome to the Grancho and the Vox Media Podcast Network.

1:05.0

My guest today is Ibram X Kendi, who is the founding director of the Anti-Racist Research and Policy Center at American University.

1:12.0

He is the author of the new book, How to Be an Anti-Racist.

1:15.0

He is the author of the previous book, which is a remarkable book that I read and had a big influence on me, called Stamp from Beginning,

1:21.0

which won the National Book Award. He was the youngest ever National Book Award winner, which is hell of a thing to be able to put out of bio.

1:27.0

Kendi is doing something I think interesting and important and also very challenging.

1:32.0

He is trying to create a framework and a really redefinition of racism, of anti-racism, of how we think about those ideas, what they mean, what they mean when they play out in our lives.

1:42.0

This conversation in his project are similar to the Kettman conversation I had some months ago,

1:47.0

whereas just as Kettman is trying to see misogyny as a social system women face, not something in the hearts of men,

1:55.0

Kendi is trying to understand racism as a social and institutional and policy system that people face, not something that is in the hearts of racists.

2:03.0

And that means taking a word that has as much negative charges really any in American life and applying it much more expansively, much more often to many more people, including himself.

2:15.0

Understanding racist as something that we all kind of shift in and out of as we are advocating or believing in things that would lead to more racial difference that would blame people more for racial difference versus closing it versus moving towards equality.

2:28.0

And so this is challenging.

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