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What's up everybody? I'm Demedricofenus and you're listening to Hidden Forces where each week I speak with experts in the fields of technology, science, finance, and culture to help you gain the tools to better navigate an increasingly

complex world so that you're less surprised by tomorrow and better able to predict what happens next.

My guest this week is legendary value investor Howard Marks, who serves as the co-chairman and co-founder of Oak Tree

Capital Management, a leading investment management firm responsible

for over 120 billion dollars in client assets.

Our conversation centers on the subject of cycles, their origins and impacts.

Howard shares his philosophy on risk management, asset bubbles, contrarianism, and what he calls second-level thinking, something that has allowed

him to outperform his competitors and beat the market time and again over the course of a career

that has sp spent five decades encompassing the most

turbulent and iconic periods in modern finance. We also explore how markets and the

economy have changed over the last 50 years, how the drivers of a secular

bull market in finance may already have come to an end, and how a new normal characterized by low returns on capital, is unleashing political

and social forces that have yet to be appreciated, let alone priced, into financial assets.

Finally, I ask Howard what he sees as the greatest challenge facing the next generation of investors,

what skills he believes they will need to survive the current cycle and thrive in the next.

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