what I've seen a lot of the discourse has become is, oh, China is doing this, so that is bad,

because China is bad. And if we, as in the United States or the West, do the same thing,

that is not only good, but often framed as necessary because China is doing similar things.

And that just becomes like,

just like it's incredibly intellectually,

lazy and logically inconsistent.

And at the end of the day,

it's morally indefensible.

I'm going host, Paris Marks, and this week my guest is Yang Yang Chang.

Yang is a research scholar at the Yale Law School and has a history as a particle physicist.

She's written for a number of publications, including The New York Times, The Guardian, the Nation, and Wired.

In this week's conversation, we're talking about the relationship between the United States and China and how these growing divides between these two countries, pushed for often geopolitical interests,

have effects on science and on kind of scientific collaboration between these two countries,

but also have kind of broader impacts on societies as narratives designed to, you know,

make one country look better than the other, or to make one country's tech industry look like it's kind of benevolent and great while as the other one is authoritarian and domineering are designed not to ensure the public interest and to ensure that we have a good understanding of what these countries and these tech

companies and whatnot are actually doing, but to try to get us to kind of be on one side of a growing

geopolitical rivalry as, you know, the United States in particular feels that its position in the world

is increasingly being threatened by a rising power.

And so I wanted to discuss this with Yang Yang because she wrote a really fantastic piece or really a

couple of fantastic pieces in Wired that I think have a really great perspective on how this works

and how she has experienced this as a scientist who came from China and studied in the United States, but also, you know, did work in Europe.

And so has a lot of experience with these kind of international collaborations, but has also watched the kind of reception of Chinese science and Chinese scientists change over the time

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