How Trump Dismantled the Department of Justice with Carol Leonnig

On with Kara Swisher

New York Magazine

Society & Culture

4.2 • 3.2K Ratings

🗓️ 6 November 2025

⏱️ 58 minutes

🔗️ Recording | iTunes | RSS

🧾️ Download transcript

Summary

Under President Trump, the Department of Justice’s long-standing mission to uphold the law “without fear or favor” has been turned on its head. Attorney General Pam Bondi has followed Trump’s directives to target his political enemies and help his allies. But in their new book, Injustice: How Politics and Fear Vanquished America’s Justice Department, investigative journalists Carol Leonnig and Aaron Davis show that the erosion of the DOJ’s independence began long before Trump’s second term. Kara speaks to Leonnig, MSNBC senior investigative reporter, bestselling author and five-time Pulitzer Prize winner, about how internal pressure campaigns in Trump 1.0 prevailed, despite the noble intentions of prosecutors; the many red flags that were missed by the FBI ahead of the January 6th Capitol attack; the stubborn bravery of unsung heroes in the National Archives Department during the Biden administration; and how the DOJ’s loss of political independence will impact the country. Questions? Comments? Email us at on@voxmedia.com or find us on YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, Threads, and Bluesky @onwithkaraswisher. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Transcript

Click on a timestamp to play from that location

0:00.0	I remember sitting with a source high up in the Justice Department who said, this place is going to get shredded.
0:20.4	Hi, everyone, from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network.
0:22.3	This is on with Kara Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher.
0:25.3	A core principle of the Justice Department used to be the pursuit of justice, quote,
0:29.4	without fear or favor.
0:31.3	Well, those days are clearly over, as fear and favor are in vogue.
0:36.0	President Trump, together with his Attorney General, Pam Bondi,
0:39.1	and the FBI director, Cash Patel, is using the DOJ to target his enemies and help his allies.
0:44.7	They claim it is retribution for the weaponization of the Justice Department under President Biden,
0:49.9	but the erosion of the Justice Department and the FBI's independence started long before
0:53.9	inauguration day 2025, way back in Trump 1.0. That's what I want to talk about with my guest
1:00.8	today, MSNBC's senior investigative reporter, best-selling author, and five-time Pulitzer
1:05.4	Prize-winning investigative journalist Carol Lennox. Together with her co-author Aaron Davis, Lenig is out with a new book called
1:12.5	Injustice, How Politics and Fear Vanquished America's Justice Department. I have known Carol for a long
1:18.1	time. She's an amazing Washington Post reporter. She worked there for 25 years covering the Justice
1:22.7	Department of the White House. In 2022, she was part of the Post team that won the Pulitzer
1:27.2	for public service for the
1:28.8	coverage of the January 6th Capitol attack. And I want to talk to Carol about a lot of things,
1:33.5	including why so many people dropped the ball before or during January 6th, how the fear of
1:39.2	retribution planted in Trump 1.0 impacted the Biden administration and how we got where we are now.
1:46.2	Our expert question this week comes from former Assistant Attorney General for the Antitrust
1:51.2	Division at the DOJ under President Biden. Jonathan Cantor, stay with us. Defenders in cybersecurity are always there when we need them.
	...

Please login to see the full transcript.

Previous episode | Next episode

Disclaimer: The podcast and artwork embedded on this page are from New York Magazine, and are the property of its owner and not affiliated with or endorsed by Tapesearch.

Generated transcripts are the property of New York Magazine and are distributed freely under the Fair Use doctrine. Transcripts generated by Tapesearch are not guaranteed to be accurate.