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Hi, I'm Ravi Agrual, Foreign Policies Editor-in-Chief. This is FP Live.

So I'm on leave this week, but I recorded an interview I really think you're going to like.

This one's a big step back from the drumbeat of news.

We often talk about world order on this program, discussions around it center on two things,

why the rules-based order, largely built by the United States, is breaking down.

And second, what might come next?

Well, my guest this week says we should stop thinking that China wants the responsibility

of running a new order.

In his new book, Surviving Chaos, Geopolitics, when the Rules

Fail, Mark Leonard argues we are already in what he calls unorder, not disorder, but unorder,

a chaotic era where the very definitions of rules and order are contested.

And in this contest, you have two basic types of actors, he says, architects who are invested

in the old system and artisans who accept that the world is changing dramatically and

...