How to Stop “Ensh*ttification” Before It Kills the Internet - ft. Cory Doctorow

Capitalisn't

University of Chicago Podcast Network

Stigler Center, Chicago Booth, Socialism, Antitrust, University Of Chicago Podcast Network, Growth, 087667, Policy, Monopoly, Professors, Distortion, Research, Competition, Capitalisnt, Inequality, Promarket, Politics, Policymaking, Special Interest, Economics, Efficiency, Regulations, Chicago, Business, Markets, University Of Chicago, Kate Waldock, Capitalism, Friction, Bethany Mclean, Government, Macroeconomics, News, Education, Waldock, Georgetown, Microeconomics, Luigi Zingales, Zingales, Finance, Ucpn

4.5 • 584 Ratings

🗓️ 11 December 2025

⏱️ 56 minutes

🔗️ Recording | iTunes | RSS

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Summary

There’s a word that’s gained a lot of popularity in the last year: “ensh*ttification”. It refers to a trajectory many see with digital platforms: they initially offer immense value to users, only to systematically degrade that quality over time in order to extract maximum surplus for shareholders. We invited the coiner of this term, science fiction author and activist Cory Doctorow, on the podcast to discuss whether he thinks this decline is an inevitable feature of digital markets or a consequence of specific policy failures. And, most importantly, how he thinks it could be reversed. For Doctorow, "enshittification" is not simply a result of "revealed preferences", where users tolerate worse service because they value the platform, but rather the outcome of a regulatory environment that has permitted the creation of high switching costs and the elimination of competitors. Doctorow also argues that historically, interoperability acted as an engine of dynamism, allowing new entrants to lower the barriers to entry. But current IP frameworks, such as anti-circumvention laws, have been "weaponized" to prevent this, effectively allowing firms to enforce cartels and engage in rent-seeking behavior. Finally, Doctorow offers a critical assessment of the current AI boom, arguing that the sector is creating "reverse centaurs", where human labor is conscripted to correct algorithmic errors, and warns of a potential asset bubble driven by inflated revenue attribution.

Transcript

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0:00.0	There's a kind of caricature neoliberal version of this where you say, actually, no, this is just revealed preferences.
0:05.4	People don't dislike Facebook. If they did, they'd have left, right? In the same way that, like, if you sell your kidney for rent, you have a reveal preference for one kidney.
0:15.5	I'm Bethany McLean. Did you ever have a moment of doubt about capitalism and whether greed's a good idea?
0:22.3	And I'm Luigi Zengalis.
0:23.6	We have socialism for the very rich, rugged individualism for the poor.
0:29.1	And this is Capital Isn't, a podcast about what is working in capitalism.
0:33.1	First of all, tell me, is there some society you know that doesn't run on greed?
0:37.6	And most importantly, what isn't?
0:39.6	We ought to do better by the people that get left behind.
0:42.5	I don't think we shouldn't kill the capital system in the process.
0:45.8	Since our show discusses what's working in capitalism and what isn't, today we are going to talk about
0:51.2	enshittification.
0:52.6	And what?
0:53.7	Enshittification, a term coined by Kori
0:55.7	Docterov to describe the increasingly common customer experience on the internet today.
0:59.8	It was named the 2004 word of the year by Australia's McCory Dictionary, and it inspired the
1:06.0	2025 season of Black Mirror. What makes this world so special? Isn't this just a funny way to say that
1:11.6	things are getting worse? Well, the way Dr. O uses it, it's far more than a word. It's actually
1:16.8	a diagnosis of why we as customers are having a worse and worse experience on the internet.
1:22.2	He outlines these steps. First, platforms are good to their users. Then they abuse their users
1:27.3	to make things better for their business customers. Next, they are good to their users. Then they abuse their users to make things better
1:28.2	for their business customers. Next, they abuse those business customers to claw back all the
	...

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