Hello and welcome to The Upgrade, the podcast from the team of Lifehacker, where we help you improve your life one week at a time.

I'm Alice Bradley, LifeHacker's

deputy editor, and today I'm joined by our managing editor, Joel Cunningham. Hi, Joel. Hi, Alice.

How are you doing? I'm doing as well as can be expected in these times. That's capital T,

capital T on that. Excellent. Excellent. Well, you know what? This week we're diving into a challenging but important topic.

We are.

I think by definition, marriage is always a challenge.

And especially right now, I think it's more fraught than ever.

Exactly.

This is why we're exploring how to avoid divorce at a time when many people feel more ready for it than ever before.

And who better to guide us than New York City of divorce attorney James J. Sexton?

Like if we are the kind of people that thrive and we can admit it, having a little time away from each other, how can we do that in COVID?

One of the things that's nice about a relationship is missing each other sometimes and not constantly having each other. How can we do that in COVID? One of the things that's nice about a relationship is

missing each other sometimes and not constantly having each other. So build that in.

James is the author. If you're in my office, it's already too late. A Divorce Lawyer's Guide to

staying together. He's also a friend of the upgrade, having been on the show twice before.

Yes, if you're a newer listener, we recommend checking out our previous episodes

with James, How to Save Your Relationship, and our live panel discussion, How Should a Man Be?

So, Alice, how pandemic proof is your marriage feeling these days?

Joel, he's driving me crazy. Here's the thing. We have a strong relationship, my husband and I.

Been together now for, it'll be 25 years together, 21 years married in about a week.

But obviously we haven't had a situation like this ever before.

...