Welcome to the Eurointelligence podcast. I'm Wolfgang Munchau and with me are Susanna Monshank and Jack Smith.

Today we will talk about the New World Order, the order that followed the age of globalization, the age of financial globalization, the age of multilateral institutions, the age of value-based foreign policies, whose features

we've all gotten used to. The Greenland threat is off the table for now. Donald Trump has made

a retreat, or what appeared to be a retreat. We don't know. Lots of details we don't know at this

point. But the rift in the transatlantic alliance is for real.

Europe's strategic questions are as important and as pressing as ever.

What can we do without the United States? Shall we decouple from the United States?

To which extent can we decouple from the United States? To which extent can we decouple from

the United States? Shall we seek other alliances, as Mark Carney appeared to suggest in his speech this

week? So what are the right strategic options? So this is what we're going to discuss today.

It's a broad, it's a broad, it's a broad, um, area, but we want to get quite specific about what is it we need to do. Not this, ah, we have to stand up to Trump. We have to, we have to get separate, uh, everybody can say that and a lot of, you know, commentators say that all the time, but they don't know, they haven't got the clue what this involved.

So we want to try to get a little bit more concrete today and ask ourselves, what does it take?

Jack, what do you think?

I think it takes a lot of different things, but I think, you know, at least in my opinion, the most important side of this is security and defense.

Because it's sort of the fulcrum on which everything else rests to a certain extent, because without a solid security situation, we don't have anything.

And it's sort of the ultimate leverage point that the Americans have over, you know, its allies in Europe, in Canada,

and East Asia and so on. That is quite a difficult proposition. And it's not just a difficult

proposition because I don't know, our armies aren't big enough or because we're not spending

enough money on defense, be that true as it might. It's a difficult thing to do because decades of existing within

an American-led security infrastructure have introduced numerous, you know, operational, logistical,

and industrial dependencies on the United States, which are going to be very hard to

undo. I mean, I've heard there's been talk, it's been on and off for quite a while, but more on

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