Welcome to Current Affairs. My name is Nathan Robinson. I'm the editor-in-chief of Current Affairs Magazine.

I am joined today by Dorothy Roberts. She is a professor of law and sociology at the University of Pennsylvania, and author of books such as, Killing the Black Body, Race, Reproduction, and the Meaning of Liberty,

fatal invention, how science, politics, and big business recreate race in the 21st century,

and most recently torn apart how the child welfare system destroys black families and how

abolition can build a safer world, which is the culmination of over 25 years of research

and activism on the child welfare system, on which Professor Roberts is perhaps the

country's leading expert. Ibram X. Ibram X. Kendi calls the new book a devastating

indictment, and Brian Stevenson says that it is rooted in decades of rigorous examination,

research, and reflection.

They also received the news just a couple of days ago that Professor Roberts is one of the

latest cohort, the 2024 cohort of MacArthur Fellows, commonly known as the Genius Grant.

So we congratulate her on that.

It's a great honor today to be joined by Professor Dorothy Roberts.

Professor Roberts, welcome to Kurt Fas.

Thank you.

Thank you so much for inviting me to be on your podcast.

You're doing something very, very difficult in this book

because you are upending people's understandings of the seemingly obvious, right? So you talk about how we use words

that are ultimately perverse euphemisms, child protective services, even child welfare.

It's a tough task because you're taking on something that a lot of people won't even have

thought about. They will assume there's a system out there.

It deals with cases of abuse. And you're saying it is not at all how you think it is. So how do you

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