Pushkin.

It's hard to read the news these days without asking yourself, how did we get here?

Fiasco is a history podcast for the co-creators of Slow Burn.

In our first season, Bush v. Gore, we examined an unmistakable turning point in American

politics, the 2000 election, which resulted in a high-stakes stalemate, ended with one of the most

controversial rulings in Supreme Court history. So if you're trying to make sense at the present

moment, check out Fiasco, Bush v. Gore. Listen on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

From Pushkin Industries, this is Deep Background, the show where we explore the stories behind the stories in the news.

I'm Noah Feldman.

Tonight, we renew our resolve that America will never be a socialist country.

That's President Donald Trump to a huge round of applause at the State of the Union address.

And that got me thinking, in a world where Bernie Sanders

calls himself a democratic socialist, and so does Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, and so do a whole raft of

young and active new progressives. What is socialism? What's a socialist? Doesn't matter. Is there any

really good reason that we can't have socialism in the United States? Or is it truly the case that we can never have a socialist country? And maybe above all, how close is today's brand of socialism to the real thing? To discuss socialism and what it means today, we have with us probably the person best positioned to talk about that

in the entire United States. And that's Professor Sean Willance of Princeton, who's thought

incredibly deeply and written extremely broadly about the history of labor, of unionism, of politics,

and of the terms that talk about those things in the United States from the very dawn of the American Republic right up until the present.

Sean, I'm thrilled that you're able to join us. Thank you for coming.

Well, thank you, Noah, for that lovely introduction.

So let me start with the question that is frankly plaguing me in the aftermath of Donald Trump's proclamation and the new democratic socialists in their rise.

And that is, at the most basic level, what is socialism?

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