The beginning of Ephesians 2 talks about you can follow the ways of the world.

A lot of the tables that you are fighting for, you want a seat there because you believe it's going to bring you life.

Well, guess what? That table is probably following the way of the world.

What I'm learning is if I'm fighting for a seat at the table, even if it's a good thing, it might be an idol for me.

Yes. Yes. So we have Heather Holloman back in the studio. It's been a while. It has. I'm back. From the Penn State Nittany Lions. That's right. You know, we're big 10 people over in Michigan. You know, I'm a Michigan grad.

My PhD's from Michigan.

Yeah, but you can't be a Wolverine. Did you hear that? She just dropped the Ph.D. I did. I love it. I have a huge Penn State fan. I mean a huge, I have season basketball tickets. I follow all the players. I love Penn State. so I'm sorry.

So you've become a traitor. This is not going well, is it?

I'm a traitor.

Yeah.

That's okay because you know what? I love Penn State. So I'm sorry. So you've become a traitor.

This is not going well, is it? I'm a traitor. Yeah. That's okay because you know what? We're secretly Ohio State fans. That's even worse. Because we grew up in Ohio State. You can't say it in Michigan. You literally can't say it. I'm actually glad that you're Ohio State fans. Why? Because it's a fun. I love Ohio State. The community, it reminds me a lot of Penn State, just the love the

students have for their school. And God's doing a lot on that campus. I know. Yeah, he is. I love following what's happening at Ohio State. Yeah, so we can both be enemies. I mean, Michigan can be our enemy here. Yeah, we can connect over that. Yeah. Is good. What's your doctorate in? English literature. And I focused on shame, actually, in 19th century literature. So you'll see that those themes come out a lot in my writing is how to help people recover from shame. A lot of my characters deal with shame. Okay. Yeah, now you know where to go. So, I mean. I go in there already. I want to talk about my PhD. I know, let's go. I didn't get one. But if you're talking about shame, you've dealt with shame. Yes, yes. So take us back to that. Well, what fascinates me about shame is it's one of the most tormenting emotions a human can experience. And it's kind of where Satan

wants us to live. And shame is like, I'm a bad person. Everyone thinks I'm a bad person. And so I remembered

being in grad school and really struggling with the idea that even though I was forgiven of sin,

I couldn't experience it myself. I just kind of walked around in shame. I had to

quote, you know, there's no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. But I just always felt

like I wasn't living up to things. It's a tormenting sense of inferiority. That's what shame is.

So I decide to really study it. How do people recover from shame?

Hey, wait, wait, I got to stop you. Are you feeling tormenting inferiority? No, I mean, that definition. Yeah, it's tormenting inferiority, yeah. I've never heard it because it's tormenting. It doesn't stop. It plagues you, it hammers you, right? Yes. I feel like it bleeds into every area of your life. Yeah. And you want to hide. That's how you know it appears in the garden. Adam, and you want to hide. I don't think you've ever experienced that. Because I don't, you just poked me. I don't think that you've really dealt with shame. I wonder if I've covered it up so, so well. Maybe.

With success on a football field and that kind of thing that it's really a cover-up that,

I don't know.

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