There's an old saying.

Sticks sin stones may break by bones, but words will never hurt me.

But that doesn't hold true in the world of psychological warfare.

It's not the opening stage in a debate.

It is a weapon.

They're delivering weaponized messages that can't be met with rational responses.

It's Tuesday, June 11th.

You're listening to Science Friday.

I'm SciFi producer Charles Burgquist.

Today, author Anilie Newitz joins IRA to talk about the history of psychological warfare, from

Sun Tzu's Art of War to Benjamin Franklin, about its modern American incarnation and

how military psychological warfare techniques are being brought to modern politics.

When we talk about war in conflict on this program, it's often a technology story.

Faster Plains, more resilient armor, powerful lasers or spy

satellites. Or it's a medicine story, how to help heal those devastated by warfare. But my next guest says that narrative in psychology are parts of that fabric too.

And he knew it's as a science journalist based in San Francisco and author of the new book Stories are Weapons, Psychological Warfare and

the American Mind.

Anne, always great to talk to you.

Yeah, thanks again for having me back.

You're welcome. All right, tell us what led you to write this book.

You know, it really grew out of my interest in history.

I had started noticing, of course, like all of us,

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