This is Paul Adamson and I'm in conversation with Sanda Katwalla.

Sanda Katwalla is the director of British Future, which is an independent, non-partisan think tank based in London.

Sanda, you've recently co-authored and published a pamphlet called How Not Brackets, Brackets, to talk about Europe.

And I think one of your opening thoughts, which is very provocative, is that the two camps in and outs,

who have a kind of core vote of about 20% each are not doing enough to reach out to uncommitted, undecided voters.

Could you amplify that thought, please?

Yes, so partly because we're independent, non-partisan things and we decided to get above the fray in talking about why this

referendum matters. And it's a very important moment of choice for the British people who've got

to decide this really big issue, not in Parliament, but in a public vote.

Do we stay in Europe or not?

And the problem for the two campaigns is, of course, it's prime time now.

They've got to convince everybody that they're right about the thing they most care about.

Some people have been waiting for a referendum for 40 years since they lost the last one,

and other people

probably fearing it, but no, it's very important to, you know, to try and hold on to our

EU membership. And they know why it matters. But the British people out there have not

joined one of these campaigns. They didn't read the Maastricht Treaty and were horrified

that their sovereignty had already disappeared and they were living in a fantasy world to believe

they lived in a democracy. They haven't really believed the argument from big business and city

and maybe the Labour Party at the last election. They'd be terribly dangerous to have a referendum

and let people make their minds up because they might make the wrong choice. So understanding how the undecided voter sees this, such as they know it's very important,

it does seem very confusing, they've never really got all the passion is about.

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