From WNYC Studios.

I'm Brian Lehrer.

This is my daily politics podcast.

It's Monday, October 27th.

Joyce Vance is with us.

Some of you see her on TV as an MSNBC legal analyst.

Some of you may follow her very active substack called Civil Discourse, which is largely about

democracy and Trump era court cases.

Joyce Vance is from Alabama, and during the Obama year, she was the U.S. attorney in

northern Alabama, which gives her a perspective many people on the coasts don't have. And she is a law

professor at the University of Alabama. They don't just play football there. And now Joyce Vance

has a book that may surprise you for how optimistic it is called Giving Up is Unforgivable, a manual for

keeping democracy. Joyce, thanks so much for coming on. Welcome to WNYC.

Thanks for having me. Roll tied. Let's start with a big idea. I knew you bring it back to football

somehow with the University of government. Let's start with a big idea in your book. Then we'll get to

your take on some of the news stories you've been writing about, like why you think No Kings Day mattered, President Trump's revenge prosecutions,

your piece called When They Buckele the Courts,

and the ice raids in New York and elsewhere,

which actually prompted you to write the question,

are we the Nazis now?

Yikes, we'll see how much of that we can cover. But first your book,

Chapter 1 is called Don't Be the Frog. Who's being what kind of Frog? You know, this is the

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