Hello and welcome to Not Another One, the podcast with me, Steve Richards, Miranda Green, Ian Martin and Tim Montgomery. Tim's away this week, but we're here and for our reflections over the weekend.

We thought we would do it. It's a sequel, really, to the discussion we had. And if you haven't heard it, please tune into that first about the immigration figures, what they imply politically, economically and so on.

And there is, of course, a much bigger question about the rise of the

outsiders in British politics and across the world, which inevitably are connected to issues such

as high immigration. Look at Trump's victory in the United States. And that raises a really central question, which is how long is this era of the outsider going to last?

I wrote a book called The Rise of the Outsiders in 2016, pegged to Trump's victory, Brexit, and the rise actually of the left in Spain and Portugal and the rise of the

right in other countries. And that was eight years ago. And here we are still reflecting on the

rise of outsiders, Trump back, across Europe, the outsiders. So Miranda, let's begin immediately with the sequel to

the last one. Is immigration the main driver of the rise of the outsider, especially on the

right, the sort of nationalist right? Yeah, I think it is. And what interests me is that when you talk to friends

across the political spectrum, you know, in the run up to the July election in the UK and after,

you get a really different set of preoccupations depending on their place on the political spectrum in my sort of experience.

And people on the right of politics and the centre right of politics say, this is the big issue, this is going to dominate the next decade.

It's all going to be about an era of mass migration and how individual nation states cope with it and whether they can

navigate it and get what they need for their economies and societies and resist the kind of

populist backlash against it. And you don't find, you know, you don't necessarily find that

same preoccupation on the other side of

politics, except that they're so aware of the rise of the populists and the threat to their

own voter base. So, you know, when you talk to the incoming Labour MPs from July, who are

in those formerly conservative held red wall seats from the Tories won in

2017-2020, they are really painfully aware of the fact that the people breathing down their

necks now are not the Tory party but Nigel Farage and reform. And so how do they relate to their

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