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Okay, we're having this radiant spring weather here in Brussels, but ironically, I've got the lyrics from the movie

frozen randomly in my head. Let it go. So for a while now, we've all been banging on about

the rules-based order and how it's collapsing. Europe, the ultimate rules-based system, has been trying to position itself as the

last arbiter, the anchor of stability and moral clarity, the way to stave off the barbarity that

brought us two world wars in the previous century. Our guest today argues it's time to let it go.

From Ukraine to Venezuela, from the Greenland standoff to the escalating war around Iran,

crises are beginning to overlap, bleed into one another, and pull Europe into conflicts far beyond its borders.

And one way of explaining this is that it's not just that other power players are, quote,

breaking the rules.

It's because the rules-based order has become completely irrelevant, a state of un-order.

So what does the latest war in Iran reveal about Europe's role in this more chaotic world?

Can the EU still be effective trying to manage geopolitics through diplomacy and rules?

Do we have any chance in a world that plays fast and loose?

I'm Sarah Wheaton, host of EU Confidential.

To break it all down, I'm joined by Mark Leonard, director of the European Council on Foreign Relations, and author of the forthcoming book, Surviving Chaos, Geopolitics, when Rules Fail.

And by Riemontas, who's a familiar voice to very long-time EU confidential listeners, now editor-in-chief

of Strategic Europe at Carnegie Europe and a longtime observer of European and Middle East politics.

Mark, let's start with you. You're joining us from New Delhi, where you've been attending the

Rizina Dialogue. It's often described as India's equivalent

of the Munich Security Conference. So what's the vibe there? Has the War with Iran become a big

...