Today's guest is the Grammy Producer of the Year who built the two biggest pop breakthroughs of the last five years back to back — and whose real story isn't about the hits. It's about the three years he spent making nothing and the rule he wants every producer in the game to understand.

From indie rock frontman in As Tall As Lions to pop's most trusted collaborator, Dan built his career against almost every industry instinct. He carries three things at once that most producers never figure out how to hold: the commercial ear of someone who's had back-to-back Grammy runs with Olivia Rodrigo, the patience of a craftsman who sat on "Good Luck, Babe" for 18 months before it ever left his hard drive, and the conviction to say no — to every rushed demo, every session hop, every label note that doesn't serve the artist.

This is one of the more honest conversations about what it actually takes to build a superstar.

And The Writer Is... Dan Nigro!

In this episode of And The Writer Is, we go deep on:

• The three years he spent making nothing — and what finally broke it

• Why getting Chappell dropped from Atlantic was "the greatest thing that ever happened"

• "We're building like an icon here" — the real work behind Chappell Roan's rise

• Why Dan refuses to send demos

• 20 days with one artist, not 20 sessions with twenty

• Meeting Dua Lipa in 2014 — "this girl is a superstar"

• Artist development, finding your lane

• Writing good songs sucks — and why that's fine

And much more...

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Chapter timestamps:

0:00 Intro

3:01 Why Atlantic dropping Chappell was "the greatest thing that ever happened"

4:16 Atlantic's note: cut one of the Pink Pony Club guitar solos

8:20 Self-releasing Karma, Naked in Manhattan, and building a label with Island

11:33 "We're building like an icon here" — Bowie, Madonna, the Chappell blueprint

13:13 What makes somebody "have it" — the gut call you can't fake

17:21 "There are no more superstars" — the article that pissed Dan off

19:34 20 days with one artist, not 20 sessions with twenty

21:27 Good Luck Babe's million rewrites — the "Good Luck Jane" era

22:59 Why Dan refuses to send demos — ever

24:54 18 months on the hard drive

26:01 Justin Tranter asks: how do you have the confidence to dive that deep?

28:04 Three years. Ended up with nothing.

33:12 The Madonna model — outside songs, finding your lane

43:21 Taking five months off after Olivia and Chappell

46:41 Steph Jones asks: rituals, guilty pleasures, happy accidents

51:43 Amy Allen asks: has your feeling ever been wrong?

52:58 "The most egotistical thing I've ever said" — never wrong about an artist

53:20 Meeting Dua Lipa in 2014 — "this girl is a superstar"

55:55 Vampire — and the label that thought it was "three songs in one"

62:39 People need to take more risks

63:37 Writing good songs sucks — and why that's fine

68:21 Five for five — As Tall As Lions, Sour, Guts, Amusement Records

70:31 The second-album mountain

72:58 Playing Olivia and Chappell for his daughter

Credits:

Hosted by Ross Golan

Produced by Joe London & Jad Saad

Edited by Jad Saad

Post-Production VFX by Pratik Karki

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.