How Crypto Is Turning America Into a Kleptocracy

The David Frum Show

The Atlantic

Politics, News, News Commentary

4.6 • 2.4K Ratings

🗓️ 17 December 2025

⏱️ 62 minutes

🔗️ Recording | iTunes | RSS

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Summary

On this week’s episode of “The David Frum Show,” The Atlantic’s David Frum opens with his thoughts on the shooting at Bondi Beach and the rise of anti-Semitic violence globally. He discusses what governments can do to crack down on radicals and prevent future acts of violence. Then David is joined by Will Thomas, a professor at the Michigan Ross School of Business, to discuss Thomas’s paper “Crypto Kleptocracy.” David and Thomas discuss how the second Trump term has embraced the crypto industry, how cryptocurrencies have enriched the Trump family, and the new channels for corruption that crypto opens. Finally, David discusses Joseph Conrad’s “Lord Jim” and what the novel can teach us about courage, a discussion relevant after an eyewitness reported that he thought police were slow to act during the terrorist attack on Bondi Beach. Sign up for David Frum’s newsletter alert. Get more from your favorite Atlantic voices when you subscribe. You’ll enjoy unlimited access to Pulitzer-winning journalism, from clear-eyed analysis and insight on breaking news to fascinating explorations of our world. Atlantic subscribers also get access to exclusive subscriber audio in Apple Podcasts. Subscribe today at TheAtlantic.com/Listener. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Transcript

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0:43.5	Hello. Hello, and welcome to the David Frum show.
0:46.1	I'm David Frum, a staff writer at the Atlantic.
0:51.6	My guest this week will be Will Thomas, professor at the Michigan School of Business,
0:54.6	and we'll be discussing the intersection of cryptocurrency and American kleptocracy and how we can have a more honest approach to the management
1:00.2	of both. My book of this week will be Lord Jim by Joseph Conrad, a study of courage, what it means,
1:07.5	what it means to have it, what it means to lack it. But before the dialogue and before
1:12.0	the book discussion, some opening thoughts on the terrible news this week from Australia, a massacre
1:17.0	on Bondi Beach, apparently two gunmen armed with hunting rifles who killed, as I speak, a tally of
1:24.0	15 people, injured many more, who had gathered on the beach to celebrate the Jewish
1:27.8	holiday of Hanukkah, the first night of Hanukkah. Much has been written about this
1:32.0	terrible crime. I've written something myself on the Atlantic and you can see my immediate
	...

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