Joining me on the podcast today is Shaul Shalvi.

Shaul is an associate professor of Creed at the Faculty of Economics and Business at the University of Amsterdam.

Prior to joining the University of Amsterdam, Shaul worked atGurian University of the Negev in Israel.

His research interests are in behavioral and experimental economics with a focus on behavior ethics.

His primary focus currently is on identifying the psychological mechanisms at the root of corruption,

making him an ideal candidate for this podcast.

Shoal has published extensively, including in the Journal of Economic Behavior and Organization,

Proceedings of the National Academy of Science, and Psychological Science.

Shul, thank you for joining me.

Thanks for having me.

We met last summer at King's College, Cambridge, for the Greed Project,

where the goal was to understand

not just how people execute corrupt schemes, but why, and what stories they tell themselves to

justify their conduct. You've done some fascinating experiments on self-serving justifications of

criminal behavior. Can you describe some of that research for us? We are very much interested in

understanding how people justify their unethical behavior, as you mentioned. And the way we studied

is very simple. We bring participants, typically students, but not only, to the lab. And we give

them regular dice that they can roll.

We also provide them with a paper cup, like the one that you would drink coffee from, and

say, roll the dye into the paper cup that you have and peek into the cup, check out what

outcome you've rolled.

Do that three times, and then tell us what the outcome of the first role was.

...