Hey there, it's Stephen Dubner.

Given the heated nature of our national conversation these days, I have been thinking about an interview I did in 2021.

So I went back and listened, and I thought you might like to hear it, too, whether again or for the first time.

Facts and figures have been updated, but do keep in mind this conversation was recorded in 2021. As always, thanks for listening and let us know what you think. Our email is

Radio at Freakonomics.com.

I have a question that I'm afraid is going to sound rude, no matter how I put it.

It's okay. That's okay. So my reading of your second to sound rude, no matter how I put it. It's okay.

That's okay.

So my reading of your second to last book, The Conservative Heart, was that it was written to help pave the way for the right kind of Republican presidential candidate in 2016, maybe a Jeb Bush type or whatnot.

Is that roughly right?

Yeah.

It was my entrant into the ideological sweepstakes

of 2016. It's debate night for the Republicans. And I lost. This is a tough business to run for president.

You're a tough guy, Jeff. And it's, and we need to have a leader that is pretty pretty

tough. You're never going to be president of the United States by insulting

your way to the presidency. Let's see. I'm at 42 and you're at three. So so far I'm doing better.

Doesn't matter. So far I'm doing better. Right. So you did lose because Trump was not the kind of

Republican or conservative candidate that you wanted. And then in 2019, you publish a book called Love Your Enemies, How Decent People Can Save America from the Culture of Contempt.

And this book argues that we have reached a contempt crisis in the U.S. and we need to fight it with kindness, essentially.

Now, from the evidence I've seen since 2019, that argument of yours is not working so well either.

So let me ask you this. Those were just statements. Now, finally, is the rude question. How do you rate yourself as a public persuader? And if not very well, why not? Because you are a smart, experienced, well-meaning person with good

communication skills, experience, connections, etc. So what does this failure say about either the

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