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Hey everybody, it's Neili from The Vergecast. On this week's interview episode,

Taylor Lawrence, the excellent reporter for New York Times, joins me to talk about TikTok.

Just before we recorded this episode, Trump had issued his executive orders banning TikTok and

WeChat in 45 days, September 20th. We talked about that a bunch, as you would expect,

but I really wanted to talk to Taylor about the entire influencer economy. That's what she covers.

That's what our creators desk covers. I think of our creators desk as our secret business section,

but there is an entire ecosystem of companies, of law firms, of agencies, of huge talent agencies

that have built up around influencers and creators on platforms like TikTok and Instagram.

I wanted to unpack that with Taylor so people could have a sense of just how big that ecosystem is,

how big that economy is, how intertwined it is into our entertainment and advertising industries.

I think people think of TikTok as just teenager's dancing, but it is an absolute force

...