How A ‘Brittle’ Constitution Broke U.S. Politics with Historian Jill Lepore

On with Kara Swisher

New York Magazine

Society & Culture

4.2 • 3.2K Ratings

🗓️ 8 September 2025

⏱️ 47 minutes

🔗️ Recording | iTunes | RSS

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Summary

In her latest book, We the People, the historian, New Yorker staff writer, and Harvard University professor Jill Lepore turns her attention to the history of the U.S. Constitution. Specifically, she focuses on all the ways our government’s foundational text has changed throughout its nearly 250 year history. Lepore calls Article V, which lays out the Constitution’s amendment mechanism, by far its most “radical innovation.” But she says the Constitution has become unamendable in the modern era — it hasn’t been meaningfully updated in more than a half-century, corroding our politics and government. Kara and Jill break down why the Framers included a way to make changes to the Constitution, how we’re still grappling with Article V’s bad compromises, and why the now dominant judicial philosophy of originalism contradicts the Framers’ intent. Lepore also digs into whether the Constitution can withstand PresidentTrump’s constant attacks. Questions? Comments? Email us at on@voxmedia.com or find us on YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, and Bluesky @onwithkaraswishe Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Transcript

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0:00.0	This was some book. This took me a long time, I got to say, could kill a puppy with this book.
0:05.9	Yeah, you could. I'm sorry about that.
0:07.9	It's on.
0:14.6	Hi, everyone from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. This is on with Kara Swisher,
0:24.0	and I'm Kara Swisher. My guest today is Jill Lepoor. She's a professor of American history
0:29.1	and law at Harvard University and the author of more than a dozen books. Her latest is We
0:34.6	The People, a history of the U.S. Constitution.
0:40.4	LePoor's book comes at a particularly tough time for the Constitution.
0:45.5	President Donald Trump has taken direct aim at it by trying to overturn birthright citizenship and defying Congress's authority over how the government spends money, which is pretty
0:49.7	much at the center of the Constitution.
0:51.7	Congress hasn't put up much of a fight to stop him.
0:54.7	What a surprise,
1:01.0	Mike Johnson is a toady. Neither has the Supreme Court, I would say the same about them. But despite what a lot of the justices might argue, the Constitution is not set in stone. It includes a way
1:06.1	to make updates and revisions, and that's Article 5. LaPoor's book looks specifically at that process and
1:12.8	its history. She argues amending is essential to the American constitutional tradition,
1:18.3	and that it's become almost impossible now. The Constitution hasn't been meaningfully updated
1:23.1	in more than 50 years at this point. I'm really excited to talk to Jill. Obviously, she's a great
1:28.1	history professor and everything else, but she also has insight into the current moment because
1:31.4	she's also really a smart person on technology. I've interviewed her about that before, and she
1:36.0	certainly brings to bear a lot of the past and the future. Our expert question comes from Neil Katjol,
1:42.0	the former acting solicitor general of the United States,
1:44.5	during the Obama administration. He's argued more than 50 cases before the Supreme Court,
	...

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