Holy Smoke: Pope Francis dies – what will his legacy be?
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The Spectator
4.4 • 785 Ratings
🗓️ 21 April 2025
⏱️ 29 minutes
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Summary
The Argentinian, the first Latin American – and the first Jesuit – to lead the Church, has been the head of the Holy See for 12 years, succeeding Pope Benedict XVI who resigned in 2013. Francis presided over the funeral of his predecessor, who died in 2022 – a first in modern history. But Francis’s leadership has been historic for many other reasons. In fact, says Damian Thompson, his reign has been ‘one of the most memorable, if controversial – not just in recent years but in recent centuries’. Liberals lauded his position on a number of social issues, while Conservatives saw the papacy as over-reaching and out of touch with every-day Catholics. But is it really that simple?
Catholic priest and theologian Father Alexander Lucie-Smith joins Damian to react to the news of the Pope’s death. Fr Alexander says that while Francis ‘defies summary’, it is incredible to consider how far the papacy has changed when comparing him to his predecessors, even those of the 20th Century like Pope Pius XII. What will his legacy be?
Produced by Patrick Gibbons.
Transcript
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| 0:00.0 | The Spectator magazine is home to wonderful writing, insightful analysis and unrivaled books and arts reviews. |
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| 0:14.6 | Go to spectator.com.uk forward slash voucher. |
| 0:28.6 | Welcome to Holy Smoke, the Spectator's Religion podcast. |
| 0:30.8 | I'm Damien Thompson. |
| 0:35.1 | The Vatican announced this morning that Pope Francis, |
| 0:39.8 | one of the most significant and controversial popes for centuries, |
| 0:49.3 | has died at the age of 88. In this episode, I discussed his complicated legacy with the moral theologian, Father Alexander Lucy Smith. Father Alexander, millions of people around the world today will be |
| 0:57.4 | mourning the loss of an absolutely remarkable Pope, one of the most memorable, if controversial, |
| 1:03.7 | not just in recent years, but I think in recent centuries. The Pope who once promised to make a mess, |
| 1:10.6 | who seemed to enjoy unsettling the rich and powerful, |
| 1:14.8 | who clearly had great empathy with the poor, who lived in conditions of some austerity in the |
| 1:21.4 | Santa Marta hostel, who didn't shrink from criticizing his political and theological enemies, |
| 1:29.4 | who was able to reach out with tremendous charm to people face to face, but was also intensely controversial, seemed to stir |
| 1:36.0 | up conflict quite deliberately within the church because he felt that that was the way to get |
| 1:40.7 | things done, had a loathing of hypocrisy but seemed perhaps slightly selective |
| 1:45.2 | in his identification of hypocrisy. He seemed to see hypocrisy among right-wing traditionalists who |
| 1:51.3 | were bogey men for him, really. But, you know, a funny man, charming, intensely memorable. |
| 1:58.5 | But because he's left us a rather complicated legacy, it's not easy at a time |
| 2:04.0 | like this to sum him up, is it? It's not easy at all, Damien. He defies summary, I think, |
| 2:10.4 | and perhaps, I think, may he rest in peace, perhaps that's what he intended all along. He can't |
... |
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