Hello, I'm Dr. Stephen Hassan with another episode of my podcast, cults, culture, and coercion.

And I have with me an esteemed psychiatrist, child psychiatrist Diane Kaufman, who is an expert on suicide and is an incredible poet and artist,

an internationally award-winning lyricist.

And she's done an incredible amount of work in this area.

And I know from my population, Diane, so many former members and survivors of trafficking have

these bouts of such deep, you know, despair and depression.

And sometimes they make gestures and they're rescued and sometimes they take their life,

which is an absolute tragedy.

So you have so many accomplishments,

so I'm just going to mention one of them.

So you have extensive training and experience

in the therapeutic use of poetry and story.

You're a certified expressive arts educational

facilitator, and you're healing from trauma story called The Bird That Wants the Fly inspired an opera

composed by Michael Raphael, performed at, by trilogy,

excuse me, an opera company,

and is narrated by the famous actor Danny Glover.

You've won a whole ton of awards,

but I would really like to just go straight for suicide,

taking up one's own life, and tell us how you became interested in this topic?

Okay. Well, first, thank you so much, Steve, for having me on your podcast. Well, it goes back

years and years and years ago, as most stories do.

...