Hello, friends, Lee C. Camp here. We're pleased to be offering something a bit different on the podcast feed today.

While back, I had the pleasure of being a guest on the podcast with and four, hosted by Dr. Pam King.

Pam is a developmental psychologist and the executive director of the Thrive Center for Human Development at Fuller Seminary.

I've enjoyed getting to know Pam over the years.

She's also an ordained Presbyterian minister, and like me, we've both dedicated much of our lives' work to studies at the intersection of faith, spirituality, and character formation.

Pam and I had a rich conversation about what I like to call hinge practices.

That is, the practices, according to numerous classical philosophers,

on which a life will turn. These are the cardinal virtues of courage, prudence, temperance,

and justice. You'll hear me talk about concrete ways that these philosophical ideas can be broken

down practiced in daily habits. One of which led one of my students to jump out of an

airplane with a parachute and create a better relationship with her mother. You'll have to listen

for the details on that one. We also got rather personal diving into the hard work of overcoming

our own shame and how practicing healthy vulnerability is yet another indispensable human practice.

Here's my conversation with Dr. Pam King on the With and Four podcast. Enjoy.

Hello, friends, Lee Seacamp here.

There is, as you may have noticed, no shortage of content in the world.

Opinions, endless, outrage, plentiful. Deep wisdom and thoughtful

perspective, slightly harder to come by. That's part of why we created the NSC notebook. It's our weekly

email from the world of no small endeavor with reflections on a good life, behind-the-scenes insight

into our interviews, and quotes that stuck

with me long after those conversations ended.

You'll also get a curated list of what I'm reading, watching, and listening to books, movies,

...