"Heaven or Hell for Kissinger?"
The Two Matts
The New World
4.2 • 577 Ratings
🗓️ 1 December 2023
⏱️ 45 minutes
🧾️ Download transcript
Summary
The Two Matts discuss the legacy of the former Secretary of State, who died this week. How will he be remembered? As one of the most effective diplomats of our times … or a mass murdering war criminal who should have died in The Hague? Or is the answer, just possibly, a bit more nuanced than that?
After the break, Matt and Matt consider how that other giant of international politics (and that’s a joke, for the hard of understanding) handled Britain’s relationship with Greece this week. Is Rishi Sunak really quite as pathetic as he seems? (spoiler alert: YES!) and what was the thinking (spoiler alert: THERE WASN’T ANY!) behind him deciding to insult his fellow NATO leader so gravely. You’d need a heart of marble not to laugh. All this plus Shane McGowan and why you should read this year’s Booker winner.
Further Reading:
Nixon and Kissinger: Partners in Power by Robert Dallek
The Trial of Henry Kissinger by Christopher Hitchens
Prophet Song by Paul Lynch
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Transcript
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| 0:00.0 | Before we go any further, I realise that many of you must have been listening to this podcast thinking, |
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| 0:40.2 | forward slash two mats. This offer is the best you'll get anywhere and it's exclusive to two |
| 0:47.1 | mats podcast listeners. And you can cancel any time you like. So it's an unrepeatable offer to |
| 0:53.5 | dip your toe into a whole new world |
| 0:56.2 | of journalism. Hello, I'm Matt Kelly. And I'm Matt Dancona. And this is the two mats, episode 24, |
| 1:01.9 | for the week ending December the 1st. It's an Advent podcast episode. It's an Advent podcast, |
| 1:06.5 | so everyone's getting excited for Christmas. And what lies within? Well, what are we going to call this episode? |
| 1:12.1 | What did we talk about? |
| 1:13.3 | Well, we talked a bit about Rishi Sunak's Elgin Marbles, Pathan's Sculpture breakdown. |
| 1:19.5 | But we also talked at some length about Henry Kissinger and his record, which I was. |
| 1:25.1 | His divisive record. |
| 1:26.5 | And he, absolutely. |
| 1:28.2 | Where do you think he is right now? |
| 1:29.6 | Well, that's the question, isn't it? |
| 1:30.8 | Yeah. |
| 1:31.6 | And I mean... |
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