This is, Hear Me Out, I'm Celeste Hedley.

In the perennial battle between the nerds and the jocks,

it seems like the nerds may have won.

At the very least, the nerds have won an enormous influence over our lives, the Zuckerbergs, the musks.

The nerd archetype was once a lovable underdog, someone brilliant, someone worth rooting for.

But the Zuckerbergs and musks of the world aren't exactly well liked today, so the question becomes.

Did nerds win the culture war, and are they the villains now?

These were all fantasies that a middle schooler would sketch in a loose leaf notebook and

then forget about an outgrow but once you get enough power and wealth if you haven't outgrown them. and then returning to them,

returning to them, that is a new idea.

And you don't need to go to billionaires to find it.

Ian Bogost, author and game designer, joins us in just a moment.

Welcome back to Hear Me Out. I'm Celeste Hedley. We are as a society now past the point where the

nerd gets the girl and that in and of itself is the happy ending, like that's enough.

And look, that's probably a good thing.

It's enough of a cliche, for one thing.

And our understandings of romance and gender and heroism have all evolved since those days of the Bradpack.

But I want you to spend just a moment and think about the favorite lovable nerds and geeks from

current pop culture. You're Sheldon's, your Urkles, your Chucks. Ask yourself, do these guys really exist in 2023?

And if they do, if they did, would you want to hang out with them?

If society's most prominent real nerds are any indication the answer may be no.

Ian Bogost is an author and video game designer and he joins us now welcome.

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