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Hi, it's Elise Lunan, host of Pulling the Thread.

I'm an author, podcast host, and parent who built a long career in media.

I grew up in a state of perpetual curiosity, investigating the world and asking a lot of questions. In this show, I chat with culture-defining leaders, thinkers, and experts about this rare moment that we find ourselves in

and how to think about our own lives and experiences within a larger social and spiritual construct.

Before our boys have learned to read, they have already read the stoic code of masculinity and are conforming to it.

So says Terry Real, world-renowned family therapist, speaker, best-selling author, and founder of the Relational Life Institute,

where he offers workshops for couples, individuals, parents,

and therapists. He is also a dear friend. While his best known these days for his couple's work,

decades ago, he wrote the landmark book on male depression, which I cannot recommend enough.

It's called, I Don't Want to Talk about it, overcoming the secret legacy of male depression.

And with it, Real established himself as one of the most respected voices in the treatment of men

and the healing of their relationships with the world. In this episode, we talk about why

depression is quote unquote illegal for men, the cultural programming of boys,

enforced attachment, and the name of autonomy. Our culture of individualism, Real says, has done

as much damage as our culture of patriarchy, leaving men little room for the type of connection

and relationality that we humans live for. He leaves us with the steps for deprogramming ourselves from patriarchal thinking and parenting,

as well as the ways in which we can support the men in our lives in service of deeper connection

and the pursuit of greater relational joy.

Let's get to our conversation.

So funny, because I actually, I feel like, obviously we've had many conversations and I've

...