I want to believe that things are going to get better soon.

I think that it is that we've trapped ourselves in a situation.

We're getting out has a lot of negative consequences.

I mean, what you're saying, there are a lot of people that are like us that are speaking out now. I think a very small minority of us are able to continue on

and make a living while espousing. Don't say us either. Yes, exactly. Not necessarily, I mean,

I'm barely in this camp, right? But there's so few of us for whom it is even like a reasonable dream that you

can hold these views and still, you know, be in the intellectual discourse in one way or another

and make a living. For the vast majority of people, it's, this is not a reality. This is not something they can count on.

And to espouse these views means losing their job.

Increasingly in the culture-making institutions, right, increasingly in academia, in the media

as a whole, in various cultural, like just arts-based institutions. So it's, if you're in this kind of,

in these kinds of spaces, these spaces, which are, which have huge influence on what we think

as a society and how we feel as a society and how we, you know, understand our current

moments, you know, and articulate them.

If these, if you want to participate and be a thinking person, you want to be a writer,

you want to be a journalist, writing an anti-woke thing might get you blacklisted in so many

different places.

It's already hard to make it as a journalist.

So, you know, are you going to take this way?

Welcome to the unspeakable podcast. I'm your host, Megan Dome. My guest, whose voice you just heard, is Sarah Hater. I'm going to tell you about her in a minute,

but first, a little housekeeping, some exciting housekeeping, actually. Last week in my interview

with Jonathan Haidt, you may have heard me talk about a project that I've been working on over the

...