Quite honestly, the most important German interests in foreign policy all the time is to keep peace, to keep calm.

So this is why I also think partly it's a communication issue where I kind of feel that you could have a rather strong

and coherent German foreign policy even without arms exports and kind of, you know, say,

okay, we're not going to do this, but we're doing all of these other things and therefore

are definitely standing behind Ukraine.

Hey, welcome back to the Modern War Institute podcast. I'm John Amble, editorial director at MWI,

and in this episode, you'll hear a fascinating conversation I had the chance to have with Dr. Ulrika

Franke. She is a senior policy fellow at the European Council on Foreign Relations and undoubtedly

one of the most insightful analysts on European security, NATO, and German defense,

all topics that feature in this discussion.

In recent weeks, there has been quite a lot of questioning and public debate in the United States especially about Germany,

and frankly, how reliable Germany is as an ally.

The reason this is all being raised now is because of the

Ukraine crisis. On a few very high profile issues, Germany, according to this line of questioning,

seems to be hesitant to cooperate fully with NATO partners in supporting Ukraine against what

looks to be the threat of Russian aggression. But there are layers upon layers of context that really needs to be understood.

And the reality is a lot more complicated than simply saying Germany is or is not a reliable

ally.

We get into that context in a really interesting conversation that you're about to hear.

Before we get to it, just a couple quick notes.

First, if you're not subscribed to the MWI podcast, please do so.

You can find it on your favorite podcast app. And second, as always, what you hear in this

...