George Saunders on "Pancho and Lefty"
One by Willie
John Spong
4.6 • 898 Ratings
🗓️ 20 May 2026
⏱️ 62 minutes
🧾️ Download transcript
Summary
Celebrated author George Saunders digs deep into one of the best-loved songs not just in Willie Nelson’s catalog, but in all of American music, Townes Van Zandt’s legendary tale of betrayal, “Pancho and Lefty.” It is, in many ways, a song full of mystery, and George, who also teaches Russian short fiction at Syracuse University’s acclaimed creative writing program, walks us through it verse-by-verse, unlocking the secrets in the song’s story; the way Townes, Willie, and Merle Haggard made us care so much; and what the song tells us about what it means to be human. All that, plus the way hearing “Hello Walls” as a little kid crawling around under his parents’ poker table awakened him to the importance of elegance in art—with cameos by Dostoevsky, Chekov, Jeff Tweedy, and Ernie Banks.
Transcript
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| 0:00.0 | One by Willie is brought to you by Waterburger. |
| 0:03.4 | Willie's been doing things his way for over 70 years, and Waterberger's been doing the same. |
| 0:08.8 | Fresh beef, made to order, no shortcuts. |
| 0:12.2 | Some things are just worth doing right. |
| 0:14.2 | Find yours at waterburger.com. |
| 0:17.2 | Hey, this is Josh Modell, host of the Talk House podcast. |
| 0:20.5 | Each week, we pair up handpicked creative minds, musicians, filmmakers, actors, and more for illuminating one-on-one conversations that touch on everything from the mechanics of music making to their favorite candy, to their social and emotional well-being. We throw the usual journalist interview subject paradigm out the window and just let these conversations go where they will, which is often unexpected places. Listener favorites from the past few seasons include |
| 0:42.3 | Jermaine Clement chatting with Rubin from UMO, Robert Glasper with Emily King, Guillermo |
| 0:47.3 | del Toro with William Friedkin, and Hamilton Lighthouser with Ethan Hawk. We've had Hall of Famers like |
| 0:52.6 | Michael Stipe, Tegan and Sarah, and Jeff Tweedy. The list goes on and on because there are endless possibilities when you pair up two talented people and just ask them to chat. It's like sitting in on a conversation you'd otherwise never get to hear, and we think it's pretty great. Plus, the conversation continues at talkhouse.com, where you'll find tons of artist-written reviews, essays, and |
| 1:11.0 | playlists. Check out the Talk House podcast wherever you find your favorite podcasts. |
| 1:20.2 | Hey there, I'm John Spong. This is One by Willie, a podcast in which I talk each week, |
| 1:26.2 | a one notable Willie Nelson fan, about one |
| 1:28.6 | Willie song that they really love. This week, we talked to beloved American author George |
| 1:33.5 | Saunders about one of the best loved songs, not just a Willie's catalog, but in all of American |
| 1:38.8 | music, Towns Van Zant's Mysterious Tale of Betrayal, Pancho and Lefty. |
| 1:49.0 | Now, this episode will be a little different from the rest, and that's because of what George brings. |
| 1:49.9 | On the one hand, he's a brilliant, if humble, storyteller. |
| 1:53.7 | His most recent novel, Vigil, was a number one New York Times bestseller earlier this |
| 1:57.9 | year, as was his landmark first novel, 2017's Lincoln in the |
| 2:02.6 | Bardot, which also won the Man Booker Prize. And note further that the New York Times deemed Lincoln |
| 2:08.1 | and the Bardot, along with George's short story collections, Pastor Alia and 10th of December, |
... |
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