George Saunders on Anger, Ambition and Sin

The Ezra Klein Show

New York Times Opinion

News, Government, Society & Culture

4.3 • 14.5K Ratings

🗓️ 10 February 2026

⏱️ 87 minutes

🔗️ Recording | iTunes | RSS

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Summary

George Saunders is tired of being the “kindness guy.” Saunders is one of my favorite fiction writers, and a friend of the pod; I talked to him back in 2021 and 2022. He also has a reputation as a kind of guru of kindness, thanks to a viral commencement speech he gave back in 2013. We talked about kindness on the show before. But with the publication of his new novel, “Vigil,” I noticed that something about Saunders seemed to have shifted. He was pushing back against that public persona, and wrestling with darker themes. “Vigil” follows an oil tycoon who, on his deathbed, is visited by angels and people from his past asking him to reassess his life. And you can feel a tension in that book that is also very alive in Saunders himself — between recognizing how much of our lives are conditioned by our circumstances and the need to pass judgment to reckon with the truth. In this conversation, I discuss that tension with Saunders. I ask him about his relationship not just to kindness but also to anger; how he defines sin; whether he believes in free will; and what he thinks lies beyond kindness. This episode contains strong language. Mentioned: Vigil by George Saunders “What It Means to Be Kind in a Cruel World” by The Ezra Klein Show “George Saunders Convocation Speech 2013” “A Tough Question Indeed” by George Saunders East West Street by Philippe Sands “When Is It Genocide?” by The Ezra Klein Show Book Recommendations: I Will Bear Witness, Volume 1 by Victor Klemperer Red Cavalry and Other Stories by Isaac Babel The Place of Tides by James Rebanks Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota, Efim Shapiro and Isaac Jones. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Rollin Hu, Kristin Lin, Emma Kehlbeck, Jack McCordick, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Aman Sahota and Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser.

Transcript

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0:00.0	The
0:07.0	The I think there tend to be two ways to know the novelist George Saunders.
0:35.7	One is through his amazing novels and short story collections.
0:39.9	Lincoln and the Bardo is, I think, one of my favorite books of all time. The other is in his
0:46.9	public-facing role as one of America's leading prophets, proselytizers of kindness. And this role is built on the virality.
0:57.1	This beautiful commencement speech he gave some years ago about kindness.
1:00.6	What I regret most in my life are failures of kindness.
1:05.3	Those moments when another human being was right there in front of me suffering,
1:09.8	and I responded sensibly, reservently,
1:14.6	mildly. I've talked to Saunders about that speech. He was on the show in 2021 in an episode that many
1:20.3	people tell me is their favorite. I mean, I think one of the things that the left has to do is
1:25.4	recognize that we really are at a very basic level,
1:28.9	you know, defending virtues like kindness and decency and equality.
1:32.4	That's, to me, that's the thing we have to concentrate on.
1:35.4	Actually, we're the true defenders of the constitutional ideas that say we really are hopeful
1:40.7	that we'll have a beautiful country where everybody is equal. That's actually what we're
1:45.1	working for and don't get too distracted by the small storms. And I've always thought of Saunders a little
1:52.2	bit in that mode, the kindness guy. But reading his new novel Vigil, which is about an oil tycoon
1:58.3	on his deathbed, being visited by angels and people from his past
2:02.3	trying to get him to reassess his own life.
2:04.7	I began to realize that Saunders is more interested in something else now,
2:07.4	not kindness, but the question of judgment.
	...

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