George Ellis: Hawking's Co-Author on Why Reductionism Is Dead

Theories of Everything with Curt Jaimungal

Curt Jaimungal

Physics, Philosophy, Society & Culture, Science

4.6 • 606 Ratings

🗓️ 20 April 2026

⏱️ 95 minutes

🔗️ Recording | iTunes | RSS

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Summary

SPONSORS: - Sign up for Claude today at https://Claude.ai/theoriesofeverything and checkout Claude Pro — which includes access to all of the features mentioned in today's episode - Go to https://shortform.com/toe for a free trial and an exclusive $50 OFF on your annual subscription. - I personally subscribe to The Economist. TOE listeners get 35% off the annual subscription. No other podcast has this! https://economist.com/TOE George Ellis is one of those guests who makes you rethink what you thought you understood. Co-author with Stephen Hawking of the singularity theorems, he's spent decades insisting on something most physicists won't touch: that reductionism is simply — patently — false. Physics doesn't decide outcomes. Context does. The thermostat sets the temperature. The algorithm tells the electrons what to do. The physics is the servant, not the master. FOLLOW: - Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4gL14b92xAErofYQA7bU4e - Substack: https://curtjaimungal.substack.com/subscribe - Twitter: https://twitter.com/TOEwithCurt - Discord Invite: https://discord.com/invite/kBcnfNVwqs - Crypto: https://commerce.coinbase.com/checkout/de803625-87d3-4300-ab6d-85d4258834a9 - PayPal: https://www.paypal.com/donate?hosted_button_id=XUBHNMFXUX5S4 TIMESTAMPS: - 00:00:00 - Reductionism is Patently False - 00:07:37 - Top-Down Causation Mechanics - 00:13:46 - Modular Hierarchical Structures - 00:21:00 - Causation at Emergent Levels - 00:26:56 - Universal Biological Principles - 00:36:07 - Critiquing Penrose and CCC - 00:42:41 - The Physics of Infinity - 00:48:50 - Agency and Physical Constraints - 00:56:08 - The Open Future - 01:07:23 - Bioelectricity and Goal-Directedness - 01:12:28 - Evolving Block Universe - 01:19:32 - Multiverse as Metaphysics - 01:24:49 - Moral Realism as Data LINKS MENTIONED: - George's Papers: https://inspirehep.net/authors/1010821 - George's Books: https://amazon.com/stores/George-Francis-Rayner-Ellis/author/B00287T2PW - Arrow of Time [Paper]: https://arxiv.org/abs/1302.7291 - Why Reductionism Does Not Work [Paper]: https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-662-63187-4_6 - Recognizing Top-Down Causation [Paper]: https://arxiv.org/abs/1212.2275 - Top-Down Causation by Information Control [Paper]: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3226993/ - Causal Closure of Physics [Paper]: https://arxiv.org/abs/2006.00972 - Issues in Philosophy of Cosmology [Paper]: https://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0602280 - The Music of Life [Book]: https://amazon.com/dp/0199228361?tag=toe08-20 - How Can Physics Underlie the Mind? [Book]: https://amazon.com/dp/3662498073?tag=toe08-20 - Large Scale Structure of Space-Time [Book]: https://amazon.com/dp/0521099064?tag=toe08-20 - The Selfish Gene [Book]: https://amazon.com/dp/0199291152?tag=toe08-20 - World Beyond Physics [Book]: https://amazon.com/dp/0190871334?tag=toe08-20 - Contextual Wavefunction Collapse [Paper]: https://arxiv.org/abs/1807.08171 - A Theory of Biological Relativity [Paper]: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23386960/ - Facing Up to the Problem of Consciousness [Paper]: https://consc.net/papers/facing.pdf - Denis Noble [TOE]: https://youtu.be/K-U-ZB3yHK4 - Michael Levin [TOE]: https://youtu.be/c8iFtaltX-s - Sean Carroll [TOE]: https://youtu.be/9AoRxtYZrZo - Quantum Physics, Digital Computers, and Life [Paper]: https://arxiv.org/abs/2403.06306 - Dynamical Emergence of Biology from Physics [Paper]: https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/physiology/articles/10.3389/fphys.2018.01966/full - The Whole Truth [Book]: https://amazon.com/dp/0691231354?tag=toe08-20 - Endless Forms Most Beautiful [Book]: https://amazon.com/dp/0393327795?tag=toe08-20 - Topology and Cosmology [Paper]: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF02450512 More links at https://curtjaimungal.substack.com Guests do not pay to appear. #science Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Transcript

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0:00.0	There's no one like you, and there never will be.
0:03.0	From the producer of Bohemian Rhapsody,
0:06.0	there are many legends, but there is only one.
0:11.0	Michael in IMAX in Cinema's Wednesday, April 22.
0:15.0	The physics is enabling it to happen.
0:18.0	We are telling the physics what to do do and the physics does what we tell
0:21.0	it to do. The physics isn't deciding anything. Most physicists would say that everything reduces
0:27.8	to particles obeying fundamental laws. Professor George Ellis, who co-authored with Stephen Hawking,
0:33.8	singularity theorems, which extended Roger Penrose's original theorem to cosmological
0:38.1	settings, believes this is utter nonsense.
0:41.3	The physics is the servant, not the master.
0:44.3	Much like Yakir Aharnov, this is the professor's only ever podcast appearance.
0:49.3	My name is Kurt Jaimengal, and on this channel I interview researchers regarding their theories of reality with rigor and technical depth.
0:56.6	Today, we discuss top-down causation and why Ellis says reductionism is patently false.
1:03.4	We also discuss his evolving block universe, what that has to do with free will, why there is no wave function of the universe,
1:10.1	which is something Carlo Rovelli also says,
1:12.3	and also we close with this legendary cosmologist's views on consciousness and why evil
1:17.7	is a matter of fact, not opinion.
1:22.1	Professor, what caused you to think about causation?
1:26.7	What course when you think about causation? How I caution you think about causation.
1:29.3	I started off in general relativity where it's very, very simple,
1:35.3	but I then got interested in biology,
	...

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