Welcome to the Doctors' Pharmacy. I'm Mark Heimann and that's pharmacy F-A-R-M-A-C-Y,

a place for conversations that matter. Coming up next in the Doctors' Pharmacy is a great

conversation with Gary Talb, about sugar and fat and everything in between. Stay tuned for this

great conversation that's coming up next on the Doctors' Pharmacy.

So welcome Gary. You know, we're here in Switzerland at the conference, it's put on by the

British Medical Journal, about the science and the politics of food, both of which you have

written extensively about and are passionate about. And the first article that I ever read by you

was back in 2002 in the era when we were still pretty focused on a high-carb low-fat diet,

it's a solution to all of our ills and you wrote a very radical, radical article, which turned

all that upside down saying that maybe it's wrong. What if it's all been a big fat lie and this

had a big stake and butter and on the cover of the New York Times magazine and I read that I was like,

I see this in my practice. I've been reading Dr. Lydwisburg who you quoted in the article.

How did you come to kind of have this aha moment because it was sort of bucking the tide. Now

every book on the best hurl is a ketogenic high-fat diet but back then it wasn't like that.

Yeah, okay. So I had done a couple of investigative pieces for science. First on the idea that salt

causes high blood pressure and the evidence for which is poor, put it mildly. And that got me into

this question about the low-fat diet and heart disease. And while I was interviewing, doing interviews

for the low-fat, for the fat story, I interviewed an administrator then National Institute of Health

who said to me, remember we were sitting in a Starbucks in Potomac, Maryland. And he said,

20 years ago, 15 years ago, we put everyone on the slow-fat diet and we thought if nothing else,

they would lose weight, right? Because fat has densest calories. It's helped people not to eat it.

They'll lose weight. It's more than twice as many calories as carbs. Yeah. And 15, 15 years later,

...