You and Betty and the nancy's and bills and Joes and Jane's will find in the study of science

a richer, more rewarding life.

Hey, welcome to Inquiring Minds. I'm Indravis Gontas. This is a podcast that explores the space

where science and society collide. We want to find out what's true, what's left to discover,

and why it matters.

One of the things that continues to surprise me, although it shouldn't, after all this time,

is the extent to which corporations,

governments, institutions engage in large-scale denial, when their own actions are proven

harmful to humanity or even to a specific group of people, and yet they deny responsibility.

Why is it that we continue to let this happen? And how is it that the people

who run those corporations are able to engage in such industrial strength denial, as my guest

Barbara Freeze calls it? From slavery to climate change, denial has been a part of organizations

and institutions for hundreds of years. And in the middle of a pandemic,

when we're all trying to figure out what is the best path forward, it's really important to

understand how denial can affect decisions that policymakers are making and how we can stand up

for our own rights and what it is that we need to do to get through this together.

Barbara Freeze was struck by corporate denial when she was cross-examining coal industry witnesses

who were disputing the science of climate change.

And her latest book is called Industrial Strength Denial, Eight Stories of Corporations

Defending the Indefensible from the Slave Trade to Climate Change.

Barbara sending the indefensible from the slave trade to climate change. Barbara Freeze, welcome to inquiring minds.

Oh, thanks for having me. I'm looking forward to it.

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