Welcome back to the home of the oxymoron. Evil genius. He asked the newspaper to print his obituary early so he'd enjoy it. That's like hiding at your own funeral. Yeah, it's a big, great gig. I'm Russell Kane. Join me to weigh in on whether the biggest players in history are more evil or genius. Becoming that rich, I'd say that at some level of genius. It also helps that it's a long time ago, right?

It's like the podcast version of telling your kids the ice cream van plays music

when it's out of ice cream.

Listen to Evil Genius on BBC Sounds. Hello. Consumption killed Emily Bronte. John Lancaster is looking well on it. Nearly 20 years ago, he published a novel called The Debt to Pleasure, a book that made connoisseurship

seemed like a kind of perversion. And what money and things can or can't do for you has remained

a preoccupation of his work and his characters, the accountant who goes AWOL in his novel, Mr. Phillips,

the inhabitants of the London Street, in which his most recent novel

is set, who each receive a threatening postcard that reads, we want what you have. You don't

have to be interested in fiction, however, to have read his thoughts on finance, credit and debt,

though if you've read his layperson's account of the credit crunch,

you'll know that fiction or fantasy play some part in keeping the idea of money as solid as it seems.

His latest book is called How to Speak Money, a work that argues we should all know that language

better in order to understand what its native speakers

are really up to.

Lovers of irony may appreciate the next sentence.

We're here next door to the Northern Rock Foundation Hall

at Sage Gateshead.

And so is the author of Capital

and whoops why everyone owes everyone and no one can pay.

John Lancaster.

John, I think there are probably a few people in this hall who put the finance section of the paper straight in the cat litter tray.

Why should they not do that?

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