Welcome back to the home of the oxymoron. Evil genius. He asked the newspaper to print his obituary early so he'd enjoy it. That's like hiding at your own funeral. Yeah, it's a big, great gig. I'm Russell Kane. Join me to weigh in on whether the biggest players in history are more evil or genius. Becoming that rich, I'd say that at some level of genius. It also helps

that it's a long time ago, right? It's like the podcast version of telling your kids the ice cream

van plays music when it's out of ice cream. Listen to evil genius on BBC sounds.

This is a download from the BBC. For more information and our terms of use, go to BBC.co.uk slash radio three.

The story we're going to talk about today is one that's intrigued and sometimes angered people for centuries, but has a fresh topicality in Britain today.

What we call the quest for social mobility has inspired writers from Thomas Hardy, who's due to the obscure sort of place among

academic elites, and Thomas Gray, with his elegy to those thwarted geniuses in the country

churchyard, and of course, Billy Elliott, the northeast best-known modern meritocrat. For many of us,

the desire to get on is deep-seated, and there's an innate sense of unfairness about the idea

that background or

economic circumstances should prevent that. I think that explains why social mobility is

controversial and the arguments about how to achieve it so hard-fought. Well, to decide what we

mean by the notion of social mobility and whether it's a help or a hindrance, I'm joined by

the Guardian columnist Polly Toinby, the Oxford historian Lawrence Goldman, the management consultant Jamie White,

and Becky Earnshaw, the director of North East Schools.

Now, panel, can we just get clear in our heads what we mean by social mobility?

Polly, would you like to kick us off with your definition?

Well, when I was in the Tory party conference the other day,

somebody got up from the floor and said,

it's picking diamonds from the rough,

which is about as obnoxious as you can be, I think.

But I think there is this idea, particularly from people who are, you know,

...