Our world is built with stories.

Sometimes these stories cause suffering by pulling us apart from ourselves and each other.

The liturgist podcast helps people love more and suffer less by pulling apart the stories that pull us apart.

Okay, well welcome to the podcast, Fred. I'm so excited to have you here.

I'm delighted to be here. It's great to see you.

Great to see you too. Let me just give everybody else a little bit of the backstory about how we know each other.

So I had this friend who told me about Fred and it was this non-dual spiritual teacher.

So I checked him out. I don't know if I found your podcast or YouTube first, but something.

I was immediately struck by a lot of the things that he was saying, certain kind of language, that I had been, I just finished my book, this.

Fred was always talking about this.

Some non-dual teachers you hear use a lot of Sanskrit, use a lot of religious jargon.

And Fred was just very plain with his speech, like American South Carolina.

Not a lot of fancy jargon, but it just was so to the point and beautiful.

And I had just had an experience where I was trying to talk to somebody about non-duality and awareness and enlightenment.

And the way I was talking about it with them actually led them into a panic attack.

I was like, I think I better like figure out how to talk about this better.

I was like, I wasn't accomplishing what I was setting out to do and talking to this guy about this.

But I wanted to mention one other thing about a strange thing about why I used to it out so much for me in particular.

I had an example of my book about a guy named Fred.

He has this imaginary dog that he's having all these problems with.

And then Fred has this example.

It's Fred and he's this example of this person who has an imaginary dog.

...