Hello and welcome to Ways to Change the World. I'm Krishnan-Guru Murthy and this is the

podcast in which we talk to extraordinary people about the big ideas and their lives and

the events that have helped shape them. My guest this week is Frances O'Grady, who has

just stepped down at the end of 2022 as General Secretary of the TUC. She spends her whole

working life in the Trade Union movement and she now sits as a labour peer in the House

of Lords where she is committed to its abolishment. So, Frances, thank you for having me.

Thank you for having me. You have left your job in the Trade Union movement at one of the

most critical times in your lifetime for the Trade Union movement. With the nearest thing

to a general strike, we are going to see so many people in disputes and workers' rights

eroded to a large degree. So, it must feel very odd. A few sort of walking away from that

frontline job. I know it's in safe hands with Paul Novak, my successor, who's also a good

mate. But I think what we're seeing is a wave of industrial action. Running on a very

long fuse if you think that we've had 12 years of paste agnation, real wage cuts, particularly

in the public sector, people feeling workers leaving their jobs in droves, high levels

of vacancies, work loads through the roof, people feeling really stressed, why should I carry on,

even though it's my vocation, when I could get a job that's better paid, less stressful

down the road. So, we are seeing a wave of action. And I guess what's clear is that the

government currently isn't tackling the cause of that action and instead is just trying

to suppress the symptoms. But does part of you now that you don't have

to speak for the movement? Think, well, there are lots of ways in which trade unions have

failed their membership. And that's partly why we're here as well. It's not just trade unions

have failed their membership, but the trade union system, if you like, has failed to defend

...